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124815-a-level-1-50-service-please-page-2
Page 1, Page 2 Content That's your opinion. The definitions of what consists a Roleplaying Video Game are clearly defined. | |} ---- Yeah there a huge variety of ways to play RPGs. You can have games with no combat, games where combat is entirely in the minds of the two people fighting (seriously, there's one like this out there and I own the manual), games with no levels, anything. Hell, I can start a campaign in D&D with every PC in mythic level and carrying a complete kit of legendary artifacts. Or I could start them at level 1 with nothing but a pitchfork. | |} ---- Sigh. This is exactly the problem... players have been groomed to accept that group content can be done solo. It cannot and it should not. "Queueing" is not the answer. Spend time and make some friends... if your great guild isn't interested, that's what circles are for. Take the time to cultivate a static friends list so you aren't flapping your arms like a lunatic in chat every night. That's precisely the wrong way to do it, but players seem to have forgotten what the right way is. Thanks, Blizzard! I mean, do we need any more evidence than this statement that players are the problem? Games and studios are dead in the water and I don't even know why they try with "fans" like this. | |} ---- I think the definition of an RPG is pretty clear, but if not, the definition of WildStar is very clear. It has a character progression path that includes leveling. And that's really the end of it, as you like to say. When they raise the cap, then there can be a leveling service. But not before. It doesn't make sense at this point in the game's lifecycle. All content is still current. | |} ---- Despite what you seem to think, there are not actually rules that define what we need to do in a MMO RPG. Players are completely free to do what they want. We all understand that you have some heavy moral prejudice and think everyone should be subjected to the leveling process, that's fine and all, but a lot of people have absolutely no interest in it. You can whine and cry and stomp your feet all you want but that doesn't change the fact many people exist who would gladly pay money to skip straight to endgame. | |} ---- Can you really stop pushing stuff on people? We're having a discussion here with arguments, not with thoughts and opinions. | |} ---- Just because players want it doesn't mean it's good or healthy for the game. As I said, I'm not opposed to the concept, I just don't think it's necessary at THIS time in THIS game. There isn't a huge hill that people need to climb to catch up. I understand that some people don't like it. Well, alot of players don't like crafting, should they be able to pay to have max leveling in crafting? Alot of players think farming eldan data fragments is dumb, can they just pay to fill out their research tree? Some players think the attunement is a waste of time, where's the shortcut for that? How about housing? I don't like to build things, it frustrates me and takes WAY too much time. Can I pay Carbine to build me a housing pad to my specifications? There's alot of things to do in MMOs, not all of it is enjoyable. Some things are meant to be a time sink. Some time sinks are more enjoyable than others, but the point is to keep you on that treadmill, to keep playing. Leveling is just a time sink in the end. There are ways in game to circumvent that time sink, particularly if you have a guild willing to help. People are making the choice to ONLY play during their raid hours, then complain that they can't have an alt because they don't want to go through the work of leveling it. | |} ---- This is the clearest and most precise definition I've seen of RPG: Source Obviously you can refine this any way you want: Example: "Personally, I like to define a Role Playing Game as a game that MUST, ABSOLUTELY have three elements. (1) One is a statistical setup for characters that describe certain skills/aspects of that character. (2) Two, it must have some method of increasing and strengthening those statistics (usually but not necessarily by way of the experience/level system). (3) Three, it must have a menu-driven combat system that utilizes the skills/aspects of the characters. " But can we please not turn this thread off topic with silly esoteric digressions? | |} ---- Dude, we are talking about doing dungeons while LEVELING, not dungeons at cap. I know reading and understanding text can be hard, but could you at least try tyvm There are no circles on our server that cater to players that want to do dungeons while leveling up. There is a global chat, and a of course a zone chat, where you can try to get a group going, but as i said before, (let me type this in uppercase so you might actually read it properly) THERE AREN'T ENOUGH PLAYERS LEVELING UP TO DUNGEONS, ADVENTURES OR PVP! sure if you want to wait all day you might get a party going, but by the time you have your party you have done so many levels that you have outleveled that dungeon. Ah, you are still on your high horse i see, mister awesome super fanboi. Thank god for people like you who make this world such an awesome place. "fans" like me are also the ones pouring the most amount of hard cash into the game, "suporting" the studios. | |} ---- ---- I can't speak for other people but I never said I wasn't being selfish or self-interested. It's just that I don't think my interest is detrimental to someone else's game experience. To be fair, saying that you don't like something and therefore someone else who does like it shouldn't have it is worse than being selfish. | |} ---- Really? Really? *sigh* | |} ---- ---- Because one party is asking for the freedom to just do portion of game content that they enjoy while skipping the portion they do not enjoy. The other party is trying to say such players should not be allowed to have a choice. That is literally this entire thread. It's pretty funny. GD trolls at their finest, really. | |} ---- You can do all of that and more in WildStar. For example, there are alternate zones for half (at least) of the leveling process, and then there are the Paths to differentiate the process each time. Do all the Challenges. And then, now the "shortcuts" are not enough? This is the problem with offering them in the first place. They are *never* enough, and only become the new baseline on which to ask for EVEN MORE. The madness has to stop. | |} ---- Lethality the Duracell bunny... if only you would heed your own advice it would be pleasant for those of us who prefer a sane and rational argument. | |} ---- So we're trolls because we disagree? Who's conceited now? I'm all for giving people a choice, but I don't think a purchasable instant level 50 is the right choice, not at this time in this game. EQ2 offered a 20% exp boost for each max level character on your account (up to a cap of 200%). Something like this would allow people to create alts and level them much faster each time. There are already other shortcuts in the game, like chain running dungeons, which have had their experience increased quite a bit. Of course, this requires getting help, and for some reason the idea of asking your guild to help you level is unacceptable, so I'm not sure what to tell you. BTW, I understand and appreciate wanting to skip portions of the game you don't enjoy, but I already asked how far that should be allowed to go, and was totally ignored. Like people who don't enjoy crafting, but want to have all their crafts max (a feat totally possible on an individual character). Should they be allowed to just buy capped crafting? How about crafting reasearch? That takes a very long time (I am not yet done on some of my crafting classes, and have been playing since launch) and a daily commitment of doing an annoying little quest to get data frags. Should this be allowed to be circumvented with cash, because it's unfun and the whole point is to get the research done so just let them do it? I mean, you give a mouse a cookie, you know what's going to happen, right? | |} ---- ---- ---- Lethality, you have managed to insult, go on a tangent, and miss the entire point of the post here. You need to understand the point of the OP (or if you don't like him, picture the average player who shares his desires). The OP's valuable resource is time. IT is that time that he wants to spend doing what he enjoys fun in Wildstar--- that is end-game dungeons / raiding. 1. You can not currently level entirely through PvP, even though the function is there, (and it is slower.) 2. There are no alternative leveling pathways (quest -> shiphand quest,) and that's it. Dungeons won't pop without a group, they're slower without a dedicated group. Challenges would increase the time it takes to level. It is only questing -- the same linear, boring questing, every single time someone wants to level an alt. 3. The Path would be yet another timesink in the path to 50 and to get attuned, and start raiding. There is also no real benefit to pursuing a path for raiding, unless you're a stalker scientist or you have 0 settlers in the raid. How many times must a player do the questing and story every time before it is enough. Is 1 time not enough? FFXIV thought so. | |} ---- 1. Who are you to judge how someone should play a mmo? and last I checked games that give players options are destroying this one. Facts are facts. 2. Most of what you mentioned sounds like pug problems to me, you don't want to group with inexperienced players, fine, play content with your guild and move on. 3. This has nothing to do with laziness, it has to do with a personal preference in entertainment and player options. 4. Wrong once again, not all themepark mmo's force a player through a particular experience to level, just the ones doing poorly. 5. Wrong once again in the PvP area, players pvp for good pvp. As I mentioned you start out with "satisfactory" gear leaving room for tiers and skin rewards. Other more popular games also have proven you wrong...GOOD PVP should not be considered by stat gaps that carry the less skilled. 6. In no way did I mention starting out with bis slot throughout my suggestion. 7. I have not played WoW since Wrath. 8. This is not your Nexus, you should start telling yourself that. Hows that saying go, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink? Not to worry my 10day free trial almost up ;) But thinking drop X will bring players back! or changing the sub model alone is the answer! you're going to be sorely let down. | |} ---- I do understand that. However, the game's design and focus on character progression does not reconcile with that. Further, he has the time he needs each week to raid, right? So he simply spends that time each week developing his character instead, until he is ready to raid. That's really all that needs to be said. This is not a MOBA, it's a progression-focused RPG. Until the level cap is raised and the content is not current, there isn't an valid reason to offer this service. No, not if 1 character is not enough. | |} ---- But this is a better game. So much for facts then? Gamers don't want better they want easier. Example? This game doesn't need players to come back... those aren't the players who will make the game more successful. It's attracting new players who like what WildStar has to offer. And there are a lot out there who simply haven't tried it yet. | |} ---- I've done this. You get a happy, well-fed mouse. | |} ---- ---- Do you not understand the whole point of this thread? He has the time to raid, IE he has the time to do what he finds enjoyable. Clearly, he wants another character to raid with. He doesn't want to do more quests. He doesn't want to grind the 30-50+ hours it would take to get another character leveled and attuned. He doesn't want to spend his valuable time doing something he already has done before, and doesn't find joy in doing. The only real options are to provide a 1-50 service, give alternatives / ease the things he doesn't want to do multiple times, or force him to do something he doesn't want to do. Guess what, I'm about to have my final level 50 finished soon. That means I've leveled every class exactly the same way--- through questing. I did it because I want to play them at 50 in PvP. I hate leveling. The entire reward was reaching level 50 for PvP. Not the progression of the character. Not the exploration of the zones. Not the PvE way the stalker plays. Further, I haven't even been playing the game unless I've had rested XP. So what's a better choice? Telling people to do it the way it currently is, and hate it? Telling them to play a new game if they don't like that? Or appealing to a very valid position of not enjoying the same linear quest grind per character, at the same pace, every single time. | |} ---- You already know which answer he's going to pick, right? :lol: I'm guessing it's the red one. | |} ---- There are alternatives. Why do people keep ignoring that? You can do the dungeons over and over in a group. I've heard that they give a level or more per run. Grab your guildies, have them rally down, and it will go fast. Oh, but I forgot again. Making a group is too hard if you can't just queue for it. | |} ---- Where did everyone go? and I really have no opinion on a lvl1-50 service, I just think the design could be more beneficial/creative/marketed as a whole starting out max level and scaling the zones. Wildstar. I hope you're right. Imo GW2 and Wildstar are two of the best mmo's out at the moment for very opposite reasons. Unfortunately Wildstar lacks the most important thing, players. The better both these games do for NCsoft the more they will grow. | |} ---- You don't level that fast with dungeons.Well if you do STL when you are level 20 you get a nice chunk of xp up untill level 25 and then things will slow down and you will have run the dungeon about 6 times already for the next 10 levels you will need to rune it 20 more times i think. If you say you level fast then I would like to see you do it and count the amount of times you need to do it untill you can enter skullcano. | |} ---- Listen, I've leveled every class to 50. How many times do you think I've done a <50 dungeon on any character after my first? The answer is 3. They were all terrible, and they all took far too long for the xp required. What you're implying is that we have a group of guildies rallied down just to group up and powerlevel me. That's 4 more people spending their time just for me to get leveled up. I think we can safely say that dungeons are not a viable alternative to level quickly toward the goal of end-game. | |} ---- And yet... it still provides an alternative for those 5 levels (5 levels in 6 runs is far from a waste of time). | |} ---- There hasn't yet been any rational explanation why this service should exist before the level cap is raised. Answer that, and then we can talk. | |} ---- This again highlights the problem with players. "too long" "not enough rewards" - players are the problem. Why worry about how efficient it is? Why not have fun and just play? Dungeons and Adventures are a perfectly viable way to level. | |} ---- Don't queue. Problem solved. | |} ---- When was the last time you actually logged into this game? June? | |} ---- Compelling arguments don't have to appeal to every single forum poster that chooses to post on the forums. They just have to appeal to the sane, rational, and practical of those around us, as well as CRB. It's not about efficiency. It's about 1. not having enough people to add variety, 2. not having the correct gear / group makeup 3. general inexperience vs difficulty level of the earlier dungeons. You don't just have fun for fun's sake. You have fun because something makes you happy, and gives you fun. In the current state of the game, dungeons and adventures are NOT a perfectly viable way to level. Anyway, it was good talking to you. I think the discussion has met its end, when the conversation as devolved to, "the players are to blame for not liking something they don't find fun, efficient, or rewarding." | |} ---- You were saying like it was an alternative to questing, which it isn't. Dungon takes about 30 minutes first two a bit shorter and skullcano a bit longer. To go from level 20 to 35, i assume it will take 40 dungeons runs, above 25 they fill about half a xp bar and at 30 maybe 1/3th. so that is about well not 20 hours but 17 hours or so. Skullcano is the same deal so about 40 dungeonos but this takes longer so in total it will take you 40 hours in the dungeons for a total of 80 runs, you will not find that repetative? Then it takes more then 1 person to do those dungeon so you are waisting 160 hours of someone else their time. For some reason you find it more then logical for someone to help you like that for so long... Good luck finding people... | |} ---- You must have missed the part where I said "for those 5 levels".... | |} ---- Of course there are alternatives. I even described this myself. But when I hate levelling and the game obviously allows me to skip large portions of it by capitalizing on friends in the guild (or by friendly players) why would Carbine not provide a service where said friends and I could do something relevant in our gametime, such as doing 'actual' progression? Describing alternatives that everyone know of is sidetracking the discussion and not at ALL what this is about. I didn't ask for help in identifying alternatives to questing (beside dungeons are hugely ineffective for that purpose). Argument: 1; 2; 3; 4; 5; 6 (that you have conveniently ignored). There are many more arguments in this thread but somehow I feel they are wasted on you. If you could proove me wrong I'd be delighted. Now you are starting to show a gist of understanding. This thread is ALL about having FUN and just PLAY. Levelling is dreadful, boring and totally irrelevant. I do NOT ENJOY levelling. I hate it. I LOVE endgame. I would QUIT this game if it forced me to level all over again (don't start talking about expansions, it's not relevant to the topic). | |} ---- Scrapper raised the same irrelevant question earlier and was treated with a reply. | |} ---- In regards to that, yes such a service for crafting would break gameplay in my opinion. Crafting is a money sink. It takes out a small amount of gold for crafting and becomes player controller afterwards. When allowing people to max out crafting, you are eliminating a gold sink, and that will cause inflation of gold in the game, which is a bad thing. So assuming you would implement such a thing, then a counter balance needs to be implemented as well to keep the inflation in balance. Which makes me wonder whether this applies to leveling as well. You generate gold while leveling and consume gold while leveling, so instantly boosting a character will have an impact as well I guess. | |} ---- Except you don't consume any gold when levelling. You introduce gold. When you do the questing you grind mobs and you get quest rewards. This introduces gold into the economic system that is not spend again. There are no expenses while levelling because the earnings are much greater than paying for the one-time fees. It is actually even worse for the economy if a levelling character goes to town and starts buying crafted gear because then the gold shifts hands and by the laws of monetary economics ('pun' intended) this creates inflation. Rather this service would actually act like a money sink, because a level 50 character produced with this method would have 0 gold to their name, no skills and in questing greens. As such you basically remove around 3 plat worth of 'credits' from the economic system (given that that player would've levelled a character if this service did not exist, so you cannot make a 1:1 claim). Example: I would either (a) buy a CREDD to sell on my alt (using existing money in the system) or (b.) transfer money from my 'main' to my 'alt' (using existing money). I would then purchase all my skills (money sink) and either start running Shiphands for gear or buy crafted (returning gold into the economic system). As is evident from my example introducing this service would potentially stimulate the economy by creating a larger demand for trading goods (raw materials, such as rune fragments) and I suppose crafted gear. It would cause money that are now sitting and doing nothing to become active again. This in itself would cause inflation on some goods (fragments, crafted) but it would not increase the money base. PS: Olivar, I completely agree that is one of the confounding variables explaining why purchased crafting skill would break the game. | |} ---- ---- You actually consume quite a lot of gold when leveling. Just unlocking all your skills alone takes quite a bit of gold. | |} ---- Fine. But lets agree that levelling a character from 1-50 leaves you with a large surplus (earning) from quest rewards and loot? | |} ---- The point of this game is not to level from 1-50 mr. Flint. Source | |} ---- If you do it right, yes :D | |} ---- Subjective Hellgaunt, for some people it is. | |} ---- I totally agree, but if they want to partake in levelling they can still do. The service doesn't render that part of the game any more unplayable to them. But because they hypothetically might want to replay that content over and over must I do the same? That is a non-valid argument - or at the most a very petty one. The real question is, do Carbine have the guts (and faith in the wisdom of their fanbase) to acknowledge this? I can appreciate the concern of people that think these zones would be deserted, but they are mostly deserted already. To that end it is about pricing the service right, so people who would not level (like me) don't face a price that goes beyond our tipping point (making it irrelevant), but also not so low that people who would level feels disinclined to do so due to this service. | |} ---- I can understand that, but as you said yourself, the zones are deserted. And such a service will definitely not help alleviate that problem, probably make it worse. | |} ---- Did not expect somebody to reply this fast. Look I get the whole you might be a veteran to the game and not want to level again. Fact is with recent rumors of this B2P or F2P model. Giving a way for people to instantly level to 50 is bad. Especially if the game gets more players. Think back to when the servers still had a fairly large population. We had people who could not finish Dungeons because it was either people did not know how to play their class or people just got frustrated with others. Give a system to level to 50 and a possible new wave of players and you could potentially get double or triple this problem. And that was only one of the things that made people leave. Plus the journey to 50 is actually the adventure to some. I mean going through new zones getting new abilities and learning new mechanics etc. As much as grinding can be tiresome and boring it's still part of the experience of any MMO RPG. | |} ---- Perhaps, but perhaps the increased activity in low-end endgame would also have an anti-churn affect on the current population, which in turn would motivate them to level an 'alt' or for new players to enjoy the activities once they too level up to 50 (under the assumption that this service is gated behind a level 50 character). So the argument goes both ways, and no one can tell for sure. Like anything in business you need to go with your gut feeling because no analysis would tell you the answer to this question :) | |} ---- Indeed, this is speculation at best. But I stick with my opinion that this service should not be here really. I'm reluctant to accept when it's gated behind a level 50 character, but even so, my opinion is still the same. Play it as intended, and stop seeking to bypass everything. | |} ---- Perhaps your concern is justified concerning the image of Wildstar and there could be a timing issue in it, I don't think it's a wise strategy for Carbine to pursue. Silence and in-action is rarely a good idea. The entire skill part is a non-issue. Levelling does not teach you to be a good player. This has been said many times over by many different voices in this thread (for a good reason). | |} ---- Obviously you can't observe what isn't there, but here's my take. Somebody who doesn't like leveling already isn't in the leveling zones. They're either not playing (if they're bored with their class) or playing one class that they got to the cap. When people who don't like leveling DO decide that they want another character, the most you will ever see of them is their mount as they go zipping through the zones as fast as possible. They aren't going to contribute to your game experience as anything more than the image of a player unless you happen to briefly cross paths with them. On the off chance that they have convinced four other people to spend dozens of hours boosting them in dungeons you still won't see them; they'll be in the instance. And if they are crazy and trying to level through PvP you definitely won't see them because they'll die of old age in the queue. What will solve the lower level zone population problem is more players, and incentives for max level players to visit the zones. Edit: I should point out that all I see since I got off the crazy train is "This post is hidden because you have chosen to ignore posts by X." It's increased my zen substantially. | |} ---- What does this even mean? Leveling IS actual progression. Just like the sky is blue. Progression starts the minute you set foot in the game. The reason a developer has not replied to this is they're too professional and polite to state the obvious - you're request is bat shit crazy. Why not go ask EA to add rocket launchers to Madden? Same thing. No, no. Specifically: How is this service to 50 valid before level cap increase? All content is still current. Leveling and questing is the best part of the game, and defines characters that players invest in. I ENJOY LEVELING. I love it. See how that works? Except, sanity is on my side, because I'm not asking for a different game than the one I voluntarily purchase. It has also been said many times over that it DOES teach you to be a good player. You're not right just because you speak. Let's state it plainly: A game like WildStar will NEVER allow players to play current end game content without playing the progression content that leads up to it. | |} ---- The population doesn't need players who don't care about the open world and their characters, only rushing to end game. Dismissing 75% of the content. Contracts are a reason for mx level players to visit the zones. | |} ---- Been using that since I started on these forums. Makes life a lot less stressful on these boards. | |} ---- Haha yes. Not talking about you BTW. | |} ---- | |} ---- ---- ---- Look now, I have attempted to argue with you on an eye to eye basis. I have accepted your arguments and provided you with a counter-argument, but apparently you do not play by the common sense rule in every debate, that is listening and reflecting upon counter-evidense. Rather you ignore it and just keep repeating the same thing over and over again - just like a Duracell bunny that knows only one trick. It is tiresome, boring and counterproductive. I can appreciate you have a different opinion but it is completely out of line for you to lecture me on your opinion as if I should immediately subscribe to it being the only truth. You drone on and on about how because content is current Wildstar cannot have this service. 4 pages ago I agreed with Scrapper that levelling content is NOT current (it's obsolete at level 50). Yet you conveniently ignore that with everything else that has been said plenty of times over. If you want to be a Cato be my guest, but you are doing yourself a disservice. | |} ---- You are no different than me in this debate. I've provided counterpoints to everything, too... but from your perspective, it's just droning. The reality is, you're not open to discussion at all... just pushing your agenda. Let's reboot: I've asked for one simple example of another game... any game that lets you buy a current max level character. | |} ---- And to one shot everything in the zone making it not just empty with players but mobs as well now ;) | |} ---- Check it out! WildStar now was something called Mentoring, for just such an occasion! Not only does it keep the content fun and still offer benefit to higher level players, but also encourages socialization and friendships, making the rest of the game even better! ;) I responded sort of cheekily, but, honestly that's really the game system to do exactly what players are complaining about. | |} ---- Why would you rally down, if you need to kill 50+ of the same mob then why not do it 3 times as fast? Also Rallying only works if you party up with someone and that person needs to stay close. So you will need to find a low level player and ask him to stop leveling and stay around you for half a hour so that you can kill the mobs... When that player ask why do you need to rally to my level, you will be saying to make it last 3 times as long... I think you will get some weird looks and thanks for waisting their time ;) | |} ---- Carbine can easily enforce it that you need to be mentoring. Heck look at wow and their Timetravel instances, warping players to old content and leveling them down. | |} ---- It's a two way street. They stick with you for 30 minutes, you stick with them for 30 minutes on stuff they need to do. You know, social... multiplayer stuff. Foreign concept theses days. All about solo efficiency, right? Players are the problem. | |} ---- They can but they don't... I would happily do low level adventures and dungeons, and help kill low level bounty mobs.Because those are fun and somewhat exciting. Killing the same mob for 50+ times is not exciting... | |} ---- ---- Absolutely NOT the same argument, and the reply hardly addresses my issue. If someone were to walk into this thread and say "This is a great idea, I should be able to buy max level crafting too for the same reasons!" how can you possibly argue against them based on the arguments you've given for allowing an instant level 50? WAIT?! You got THAT from that quote? How on earth could you think Mr Flint meant "Everything before 50 is irrelevant" based on the fact that level 50 offers ADDITIONAL things to do (it's not like you can't do the other things as well)?! | |} ---- ---- ----